MMA on Tap Top 10 - Apr 24, 2007

Matt Serra is ranked above Matt Hughes? That can’t be right.

HW:

1. Fedor
2. Nogueira
3. CroCop
4. Barnett
5. Couture
6. Gonzaga
7. Sylvia
8. Arlovski
9. Werdum
10. Hunt

Heavyweight

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
3. Mirko Crocop
4. Josh Barnett
5. Randy Couture
6. Andrei Arlovski
7. Tim Sylvia
8. Gabriel Gonzaga
9. Mark Hunt
10. Aleksander Emelianenko

Light Heavyweight

1. Chuck Liddell
2. Mauricio Rua
3. Dan Henderson
4. Wanderlei Silva
5. Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou
6. Ricardo Arona
7. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira
8. Tito Ortiz
9. Quinton Jackson
10. Lyoto Machida

Middleweight

1. Anderson Silva
2. Dan Henderson
3. Matt Lindland
4. Paulo Filho
5. Denis Kang
6. Rich Franklin
7. Nate Marquardt
8. Kazuo Misaki
9. Joey Villasenor
10. Robbie Lawler

Welterweight

1. Georges St. Pierre
2. Matt Hughes
3. BJ Penn
4. Matt Serra
5. Josh Koscheck
6. Diego Sanchez
7. Karo Parisyan
8. Jake Shields
9. Jon Fitch
10. Carlos Condit

Lightweight

1. Hayato Sakurai
2. Gilbert Melendez
3. Takanori Gomi
4. Nick Diaz
5. Tatsuya Kawajiri
6. Vitor Riberio
7. Shinya Aoki
8. Joachim Hansen
9. Sean Sherk
10. Norifumi Yamamoto

Pound for Pound

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. GSP
3. Mauricio Rua
4. Dan Henderson
5. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
6. Liddel
7. Mirko Cro Cop
8. Matt Lindland
9. Josh Barnett
10. Randy Couture

when is matt lindland gonna fight? havn’t seen him fight lately, im’ thinking i need to c this guy(with his ratings).  But looking forward to liddell/jackson.

btw, good job on rankings!!!

Nice lists everyone…

Adam - Why can’t it be right and where would you rank St. Pierre, Serra, and Hughes?

Craig - What about Lindland’s fight against Fedor a couple weeks ago?

Very interesting adjustments at welterweight.  What I don’t understand is the logic used.  Matt Serra took a dramatic jump for his decisive win while GSP didn’t drop at all from #1.  I’m not disagreeing so much w/ GSP not dropping, because again, one fight doesn’t make a career.  However, the logic used doesn’t seem to flow to Serra.  Your adjustments intimate that GSP’s loss was definitely a fluke (which it may have been).  But Serra’s meteoric rise above some great fighters because of one huge win suggests that you did not consider at all the possibly of it being a fluke.

I see the welterweights at the top like this:
1.  GSP
2.  Hughes
3.  Koscheck
4.  Sanchez
5.  Serra
* I don’t include Penn just because he is moving to lightweight.  If I did include him, he’d be number three.  I’d throw Swick in this group on the lower end in place of Penn since he’s dropping to welterweight.

Serra’s victory was huge, but #2?  I’d like to know the thought process on this scenario.  Thanks.  Again, great job with the list.

Spirona, I saw the differences in adjustments due to them taking “strength of schedule” and “strength of win” both into account, but I’ll wait for one of them to comment.  Just stating my assumption.

wow great list and some good opinions to get us all talking.

when refering to Gonzaga or Serra’s place on the list, I think the best way to work out a ranking system would be to use the way FIFA soccer or Tennis world rankings are determined.

If someone upset federer once to win Wimbledon or French open, he wouldn’t shoot straight to top of the rankings (i’d agree with comments sugguesting a ranking of 4 or 5). How they won, who they beat, are they on a streak, where they fought…

For instance, Couture dominated Sylvia and had a resume to back up him going above Sylvia.
Serra got a lucky, very unexpected knock out over a GSP that didn’t look anywhere near himself.

Gonzaga destroyed Cro Cop on the ground and kicked his head into orbit for the win. Cro Cop looked fine before and although it was a huge upset, Gonzaga was on a streak and left no doubt that he deserved the win.

I’d like to see Lindland, BJ Penn and Henderson move up the pound for pound list.

They have and do regularly fight above thier natural weights. BJ Penn and Matt Lindland have fought heavy-weights before and looked good.

i’m not quiet conviced about a few of the placings on the lists… Arona, koscheck, Trigg, Lawler and Filho all seem a bit high for my liking.

also, can you please explain your pound for pound system for me? I see 5 heavy weights up there. dana white reffered to Matt hughes as the best pound for pound fighter in history only 6 months ago and he’s not in the list.

great topic though.

spirona - David is thinking the same way we were thinking when it comes to Serra…

First we matched up Serra and Hughes. Serra has beaten St. Pierre and Lytle while losing to Penn. Hughes has lost to St. Pierre, defeated Lytle, and split two fights with Penn.

The deciding factor was the fact that Serra is currently the UFC Welterweight Champion. How can you not rank the fighter holding the title in the most talented 170 lb division in the world by light years that high?

As for Penn still being in welterweight - As soon as he fights Pulver in June, you will see him in the lightweight rankings…

Tae - When you are talking pound for pound think of a MMA open-weight grand-prix sort of thing. Who would be the 10 best fighters to compete in that style of tournament? Hughes and Penn are currently in the 11-15 range for us. Not a knock on them by any means but it just goes to show how many talented fighters there are currently competing…

I read all your explanations, and I still don’t get it.  The rankings should capture the divisions as they are right now, not based on past fights.  If boxing were to use your logic, Muhammad Ali could still be the number one heavyweight.  Serra just got done beating the crap out of GSP, it’s ridiculous not to have him ranked higher right now (I don’t like it any more than you do).  Once Hughes restores order to the universe by destroying Serra, then you can take him down a few notches (or 12) on the ranking.

DM, what you gonna say when Hughes get’s destroyed??  you gonna tell these guys “great job on rankings b4”?? i doubt it.  i Hope Hughes wins again so GSP can COMPLETELY DOMINATE hughes again!!!

damn John where was i when Fedor fought Lindland?? stupid job of mine, lol.

Drunken Munkee - I don’t really get what you are saying. How can you not rank fighters based on past fights? It would be literally impossible. Tim Sylvia lost his last fight and Sean Sherk hasn’t fought since October. How do we know that they are good fighters? Because of their past fights…

Takanori Gomi just lost to Nick Diaz yet why do most outlets still have him ranked above Diaz? Because of Gomi’s accomplishments before that fight and the fact that Diaz is relatively new to lightweight.

John - with respect, my understanding on pound for pound is different than yours. I see it in a formular as follows:

dominance + ability, divided by wieght of fighter and success fighting above natural weight.

People on the list such as Fedor, Barnett and Nogueira are as big as they come and would never get tested fighting above their weight. Henderson, Penn, Lindland have all fought above their weight with success and are dominant at thier own weight.

my point is this: pound for pound should be determined by how successful a fighter is at thier own weight and how successful a fighter has been or would be fighting above their weight.

Franklin, Tanner, Couture, Henderson, Lindland & Penn have all fought above their natural weights and been successful, so that proves that they are great pound for pound fighters.

Barnett’s or fedor’s game plan is to utilise the fact they are bigger and stronger and wrestle/pound out wins with sheer power. If hypotheically they fought against a fighter 30 or more pounds heavier, their game plans could be ineffective.
Chuck Liddell could still knock out someone 30 pounds heavier easily. Matt hughes and Randy Couture are such good wrestlers (and well rounded) that they could concievably be effective in a heavier class.

Best exsample is Royce Gracie who beat much bigger and heavier opponents at will.

look forward to hearing what you think about my theory.

Tae, I think you’re overthinking it a bit.  Pound for pound is generally “if everyone was the same weight ...”, almost like a raw skill list, trying to ignore size.

“The deciding factor was the fact that Serra is currently the UFC Welterweight Champion. How can you not rank the fighter holding the title in the most talented 170 lb division in the world by light years that high?”

John, you and I judge the impact of the belt and the impact of one win upon rankings differently—which is A O K.    This is why we see the Serra and the Couture rankings differently.  For me, holding the belt alone means very little.  It has to be viewed in context.  What did you do before winning the belt?  What is going to happen after?  That’s why I would move Couture and Serra much less radically.  When Douglas beat Tyson, I didn’t consider him the best heavyweight at that time.  Matt Serra is no “Buster”, but can any of us say that before the GSP fight that he was anywhere near top 5?  Your own rankings said no.  I think bringing Serra up should be done slowly and cautiously.  Similar to Couture.  They have to prove that it wasn’t “lightning in a bottle”.  You seem to use the logic I’m using with GSP, but not with Serra and Couture.  I even think you dropped Mirko too far down.  Let’s see what he does next time out or see what the other fighters do to move up before dropping him several spots.

Again, just my opinion. 

Tae - Your theory is a very interesting one but just like David said, a pound-for-pound list is usually done regardless of weight. I probably gave a bad example with the OWGP example and I apologize for that but I couldn’t think of another way to describe it at the time. All of the guys you mentioned are certainly among the best pound-for-pound fighters in the world so you are on the right track. Just put your way of thinking towards the fighters going against each other all the same weight and then decide.

heh good luck trying to work out who stand where on the top 10 now!

do you keep Liddell top of LHW on the basis he was unbeaten for 4 years? or do you put Rampage top because he’s easily beaten Liddell twice now and is current LHW champ?

and take it a step further, can you even put rampage higher on the list than W. Silva after he destroyed Rampage in his last 2 fights…